Dec
8
Sane, but Very Confused, part 1 of 2
“Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic.” — William Ewart Gladstone
Part of my daily routine involves scanning through the many emails I receive on politics and cultural issues. When I follow a link to read or skim an article, sometimes I’ll also peruse the commentary left by readers at the bottom of the page. But, most of the comments — by people of various political stripes, religions, and general worldviews — are painful to read, either because of the commenters’ ignorance or attitude or both. And I almost never leave anything myself, ‘cuz these people rarely seem capable of civil and reasoned exchanges, so it would just be a waste of time.
Once in awhile, though, someone leaves a comment that screams for a response, if only to demonstrate that there are indeed fair and reasonable answers to the challenge(s) being thrown. (Not that the commenter him/herself is likely willing to give it a fair “listen”.) I came across one such comment back in May 2013 following an article on yoga and Christianity, though the commenter went off on some tangents. As is typical, the forum was less than conducive to a serious exchange, nor did I have the time or desire right then to research it all. But, I saved the URL to use in a possible blog post. Now, six-and-a-half years later, I dug it up and would like to take a shot at addressing it.
Btw, the current version of the article does not retain the old comments, but I tracked down an archived version which had at least some of them. (Don’t ask me why the comments are in triplicate.) I should also warn you that the commenter holds a rather loose interpretation of the rules of English sentence structure and punctuation. OK, ready?
“[O]kay now your stupidity is reaching laughable proportions to suggest Yoga classes can damn ones soul to eternal hell. Smart people know there is no such thing as hell as taught in the religion and that it is an allegory google allegory in the bible to see the arguments. The Pope came out and apologized for the church making up hell so how much more do you need to have explained to you before you people pull your head out and as for Reincarnation hundreds of years ago the Pope Vigilius refused to sign off on reincarnation being kicked out of the religion and was arrested back when the emperor of Rome originally decided to take out the believe of reincarnation which Christ believed in and it is in the bible Christ says John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah [Matt. 11:14] google that. Now denial is horrible thing to watch we’ve seen people deny 9-11 and that Obama is okay to run with out having to show his BC so we understand the problems of denial. Your either a believer in truth or not, My God is the god of love not some monster looking to have revenge on the whole world for them not following mans rules made up by the corrupt Catholic church. A God of love does not condemn people to a hell because God is love. now if those 2 things can coexist in your mind then you are sick and twisted and this is the kind of thing that leads to insane actions like suicide bombers and war mongering. You people who believe in hell are just as bad as islamic jihadists and are the lovers of evil because your insane beliefs lead you to commit violence and spread evil. The insane belief in hell is the cause of religious war and so it is a tool of the evil ones to manipulate people to do evil and from this all war is justified. You are Gods children would you take your child and cast them into a lake of fire?”
As you can see, the comment is basically a rant, throwing all kinds of insults, assertions, and accusations around in a somewhat scattergun approach. These sorts of comments are notoriously difficult to adequately respond to, ‘cuz they cover so much and it can feel kind of overwhelming. I’ll try to stick to the main topics. Also, this isn’t your typical skeptic. In fact, he seems to hold to some sort of “Christianity”, but one that is not biblically supported and has a very watered-down gospel. It really makes me curious about what he bases his ideas about God’s nature, the Gospel, etc., on.
The commenter’s handle was “Sane guy” and, while sane he may be, I hope to demonstrate that he is woefully misinformed and dangerously confused.
Yoga
“[O]kay now your stupidity is reaching laughable proportions to suggest Yoga classes can damn ones soul to eternal hell.”
I, for one, would not suggest that yoga classes can damn one’s soul to hell. Not per se. And I doubt anyone else was saying that. But, I do think that Christians (among others) need to understand what yoga is, where it comes from, etc., and not assume it is just some harmless exercise routine. As it happens, I have already addressed the yoga issue in my post “Should Christians Practice Yoga?” (and subsequent comments), so I won’t repeat it here.
Existence of Hell
“Smart people know there is no such thing as hell as taught in the religion and that it is an allegory google allegory in the bible to see the arguments. The Pope came out and apologized for the church making up hell so how much more do you need to have explained to you before you people pull your head out…”
As you parse out the punctuation-deficient text, note that the insults continue with the implicit accusation that anyone nowadays who thinks Hell might actually be real is an idiot. But, let’s look at his claims. I concede that there are and historically have been Christians who are/were convinced that Hell is simply allegory, in the sense of being merely a rhetorical device. But, by far the majority — Catholic, Protestant, and otherwise — have accepted the orthodox doctrine that Hell is real. Jesus and the New Testament writers sure spoke of it as such — though other-dimensional and not in this current, physical reality.
The biblical writers often used physicalist language, but we can’t always be certain when to read it literally versus figuratively. Also, some confusion comes from the use of different words (e.g., Hades, Gehenna, “lake of fire”). But, it does seem clear that the Bible teaches that those who reject Christ will suffer the Wrath of the Father and end up in a terrifying existence after Judgment Day, separated from God and the Redeemed. So, the real question is whether God (via the earthly authors) was describing an actual location where His wrath will be eternally (or not, but that’s another question) meted out upon the damned OR simply the spiritual and psychological condition or state of mind of the damned.
Though John Paul was no longer Pope when “Sane guy” made his online remarks, I’m guessing this was the pope he was referring to. In July 1999, Pope John Paul II did indeed break with traditional orthodoxy when he said,
“Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy…. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person, and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever.”
Pope John Paul II
Furthermore, a Vatican-approved editorial summarized the proclamation, “Hell exists, not as a place but as a state, a way of being of the person who suffers the pain of the deprivation of God” (Los Angeles Times, 7-31-99). I would agree that the part about separation from God is a crucial aspect to the historically orthodox position, but it is what happens when one is sentenced to Hell; it is not Hell itself.
Frankly, the rest of John Paul’s comments were a wishy-washy softening of a hard-to-accept but scripturally-supported Christian doctrine that demonstrates the holiness of God, the seriousness of sin, and the necessity of justice. The Pope was wrong. Also, nothing I found indicated that his statements included an apology.
I should note a few related things here. First, Pope John Paul II was not the only “Christian” notable to make such comments. For example, the Rev. Billy Graham said and wrote similar things, but he was a bit more circumspect and seemed to be simply acknowledging what I said above about the possibly figurative nature of some of the physicalist language. Graham is also on record as pointing out that “the person in the Bible who spoke the most about Hell’s reality was Jesus.”
Second, Pope Benedict XVI reversed his predecessor’s teaching. As per the London Times (3-28-07):
“Hell is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanize the faithful, the Pope said.
Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, Pope Benedict XVI said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to ‘admit blame and promise to sin no more,’ they risked ‘eternal damnation — the Inferno.’
Hell ‘really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more,’ he said.”
Third, the current Pope may or may not have said last year that there is no Hell. The full quote from a piece that ran in Italy’s La Repubblica daily is:
“Souls are not punished. Those who repent obtain God’s forgiveness and go among the ranks of those who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot be forgiven disappear. There is no hell – there is the disappearance of sinful souls.”
When it came out, the Vatican tried to backpedal, pointing out that the article had no actual quotes and was based on a private meeting Francis had with the daily’s 93-year-old founder (and atheist), Eugenio Scalfari, who never records or takes notes at such meetings. Scalfari reconstructs the conversation from memory, so he may have misremembered exactly what Francis said.
“Phil Lawler, founder and editor of Catholic World News, however, says it’s likely the quote is accurate. ‘[Scalfari] has once before in 2015 quoted the pope to roughly the same effect – questioning the existence of hell,’ he tells OneNewsNow.
And according to Lawler, it’s the fifth such interview of the pope by Scalfari that has contained shocking ‘quotations’ and, thus, produced sensational headlines.”
Of course, this particular controversy occurred long after “Sane guy” made his comments. But, it is interesting to see the Roman Catholic Church struggling to maintain some semblance of consistency when its popes contradict one another.
In short, the Roman Catholic Church didn’t “make up hell”, since a) the idea obviously comes directly from Scripture; b) the teaching was generally accepted long before there was such a thing as the Roman Catholic Church; c) despite what a couple of recent popes may have said, the reality of Hell is still a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. Also, even if official Catholic catechism were to change to reflect the “no Hell” view, it wouldn’t matter to me (or any other non-Catholics), since I don’t recognize the authority of the RCC or its Pope.
To be continued & concluded (hopefully) next week…
