Mar
5
One Day While Scrolling Along…
As you will soon see, the incident I discuss in this post involves an anti-atheism meme, but the post itself has little to do with atheism. (I did an atheism article a few weeks ago, if you’re interested.) Rather, it is a certain contingent of my fellow-Christians that I have concerns about here.
One day while scrolling through Facebook, I came across the following meme, which had been recently posted to a Christian apologetics group:
The accompanying comment by the original poster (whom I will call “AC”) was simply Psalm 14:1-3 (KJV), which says,
“1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
The text in the meme is a bit simplistic but makes a fair point. I had no problem with the Bible passage, either, which is commonly used by Christians when discussing atheism/atheists.
A new group member (whom I will call “JJ”) commented,
“There are religious people, including Christians, that believe in Universe that is 13 billion years old and an earth that is 4 billion years with life beginning with single cells…”
There were a few typical comments from a Young Earth Creationist (YEC) perspective, but I responded to JJ,
“I’m curious why this comment was made, ‘cuz I don’t see the connection with the meme or [AC]’s comment in the OP. I don’t disagree with it. I am one of the Christians you described. I’m just unclear on the connection.”
As I recall, AC agreed with me — at least, about the seeming disconnect. JJ replied,
“I didn’t finish the train of thought because I hit the return key before I was through and didn’t want to go back to it… an individual’s beliefs are a product of intelligence, education, experiences, the first 7-9 years of family life and a few other things. The meme attaches some beliefs of non believers with believers….”
I wasn’t totally satisfied with his answer, and I thought he may have just made a “logical leap” due to some preconceived ideas. (Also, if his comment was incomplete, but he didn’t feel like editing/completing it, why didn’t he delete it?) But, I didn’t have the time or inclination (especially with other stuff going on) to pursue an involved discussion thread on the subject. Plus, I didn’t think it would be fruitful. But, I obviously saved the relevant posts in case I felt like revisiting it some day. Like, maybe, today. 🙂
This next part is where it gets more interesting, and I would like to insert my thoughts here in response to various statements made by the next commenter….
Roughly a week later, a top-contributor (whom I will call “CP”) replied to my comment,
“I think it’s more relating to the authority of scripture. You can’t fit millions of years anywhere in the creation account without compromising scripture and calling God a liar.”
This is baloney. There are and have been many completely orthodox Christians who have a high view of Scripture yet do not believe that the biblical text requires (or even suggests) the type of just-a-few-thousands-of-years view that YECs like this demand.
“God originally created a perfect world (and a perfect universe), there was no death or suffering in it).”
Where does CP read about this “perfect” world/universe, I wonder. It isn’t in the Bible. For one thing, when the English word “perfect(ed)” is used in Scripture, it usually means either “complete(d)”, as in perfecting one’s faith, or in some sense “blameless”, as in Noah being “perfect in his generations” (KJV). The typical YEC use of “perfect” here, though, implies some sort of physical ideal in which all is peaceful and absent of anything that might concern or potentially hurt anyone. Note that God’s assessments about his Creation in Genesis 1 — even in the KJV, favored translation of many YECs — are “good” (vv. 4,10,12,18,21,25) and “very good” (v. 31).
To quote Mark S. Whorton (Peril in Paradise), “The historical foundation of orthodox Christian theology is that this world was created with a specific end in view. In full anticipation of the unfolding drama of creation, this world was created with the ultimate end of glorifying the Creator. It was never intended to be a pristine paradise, a place of unblemished tranquility for man to enjoy forever. This world was created for a purpose, and it was perfectly suited to accomplish the Creator’s perfect purpose. It was in light of that perfect, eternal purpose that the finished creation was declared ‘very good.’ But until the time our temporal, light afflictions give way to an eternal weight of glory, all creation groans with eager anticipation.”
CP continued…
“Death began as a result of the first sin (Adam and Eve choosing to disobey God’s only commandment, through the very free will God had given them). The curse (including death) was placed upon the whole of creation.
Jesus defeated death on the cross, by coming back to life on the 3rd day, just as was prophesied. Death is the last enemy, who will be permanently cast down, as God creates a new Heaven and new Earth, where there will be no death or suffering.”
While perhaps not a comprehensive response to the “death and the Fall” topic, here’s what I once wrote to another YEC: “I think the Bible clearly teaches that 1) only Man is a spiritual creature and 2) sin is a matter of spiritual rebellion (though often manifested in the physical). Only humans make moral choices that bring ‘death through sin.’ Both Romans 5 and I Cor. 15 state that the death Adam experienced — initially spiritual ‘death’ or separation from God, and later physical death — when he & Eve disobeyed God in the Garden was visited on ‘all men.’ No reference to plants, animals, or other critters. Thus, I have no problem with non-human death before the Fall. In fact, without an ad hoc assumption of divine preservation, it is hard to believe no plants, bugs, or bacteria would have been killed even accidentally — in Eden or outside of it — even in those first few days. Plants & bugs get trampled on or eaten; even bacteria, whose lives are often measured in hours, are used in animal & human digestion.”
“Scripture is something you either believe cover to cover, or not at all. There’s no picking and choosing the bits that you like and ignoring the rest.”
I wholeheartedly agree with this… but with caveats. That is, I am concerned that CP (and many of his YEC associates) sometimes forget that a) good hermeneutical practice includes recognition of things like literary genres, phenomenological language, semantic range, historical and cultural context, etc.; b) Scripture records not only true statements and godly principles but also false statements and misunderstandings made by some of the players in the biblical narrative. In this latter case, we should believe that they said/believed certain things but not all of the whats that they said/believed. However, when it comes to things clearly taught, either directly or indirectly, I agree that we must accept it all, whether we like it or not.
“‘Millions of years of suffering and death’ is not possible (scripturally) before the sin of man, as there wasn’t anyone else to sin and bring the curse into creation before Adam and Eve were created.”
Even setting aside what I already said about the “millions…”, he is clearly wrong. Satan and his fellow fallen angels rebelled against God prior to the Fall of Man. (This must be true, because Satan spoke through the serpent (or took the form of one) in order to entice Eve in the Garden.) We have no idea from Scripture how much time elapsed between the angelic rebellion and the “Fall of Man”. Also, clearly the angelic rebellion was the first instance of “sin”, and it is worth noting that it did not automatically result in a corruption of all Creation — physical or otherwise.
FYI, I have addressed (or at least touched on) these and related issues in other posts, which you may find at the “Cre/Evol/ID” page linked above.
So, why this post? Well, I wanted to share some information, make some points/observations, address some bad reasoning and eisegesis, demonstrate a different approach, etc. I was going to say a bit more here in conclusion, but I think I’ll just leave it at that. Maybe someone will benefit from it…
